Info-Atari16 Digest Wed, 22 Jan 92 Volume 92 : Issue 35 Today's Topics: Advice about MiNT Anyone interested in a sound saver for the Roland D70. Darn brevity Finding the filebase... GCC 1.40 & GDB HELP needed (UNIX arc,zoo.lharc : gdb : ST as typewriter) Hyperformat disk on a PC I'd like a CPX to... (2 msgs) PD C compilers for ST Prnt from GCR to SLM605 Sozobon 1.33i vs. Sozobon 2.0 (extras) (3 msgs) Sozobug 1.33i Start Subscriptions Tips for high-speed modem use? To anyone stuck in DM or CSB TOS 2.06 upgrade for Mega STE Turboass WANTED Cheap ST Welcome to the Info-Atari16 Digest. The configuration for the automatic cross-posting to/from Usenet is getting closer, but still getting thrashed out. Please send notifications about broken digests or bogus messages to Info-Atari16-Request@NAUCSE.CSE.NAU.EDU. Please send requests for un/subscription and other administrivia to Info-Atari16-Request, *NOT* Info-Atari16. Requests that go to the list instead of the moderators are likely to be lost or ignored. If you want to unsubscribe, and you're receiving the digest indirectly from someplace (usually a BITNET host) that redistributes it, please contact the redistributor, not us. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 22 Jan 92 13:46:21 GMT From: mcsun!uknet!bcc.ac.uk!ucacmsu@uunet.uu.net (Mr Stephen R Usher) Subject: Advice about MiNT To: Info-Atari16@naucse.cse.nau.edu In article <7877@tamsun.tamu.edu> n160ao@tamuts.tamu.edu (Mark Lehmann) writes: >I want to delve into MiNT. > >What version should I install? Where should I get installation instructions? The latest version is 0.93, though I'm not sure if this has made it onto atari.archive yet. The installation instructions come with it. > >What I am hoping that I will gain with MiNT is the ability to do file >transfer in the background while I use the computer in the foreground. > >What is a good "C" and "C++" to use under MiNT? I have Sozobon and Laser C. The best compiler to use at the moment is GCC, though Dave Gymer is working on a set of libraries for Sozobon (he's lost half his memory until his SST arrives from Gadgets.. Necessity is the mother of invention). Laser C is a bit of a dead loss in this area. > >Do any MiNT users use TeX and LaTeX? If so, what version of TeX do >you use under MiNT? > >Thanks much. >Mark Lehmann >tamuts.tamu.edu!n160ao I hope this helps a little. Steve -- Addresses:- JANET:- ucacmsu@uk.ac.ucl or susher@uk.ac.csm Internet:- ucacmsu@ucl.ac.uk or susher@csm.ac.uk ------------------------------ Date: 22 Jan 92 11:46:31 GMT From: mcsun!sun4nl!ahds!geert@uunet.uu.net (Geert W.T. Jonkheer CCS/TS) Subject: Anyone interested in a sound saver for the Roland D70. To: Info-Atari16@naucse.cse.nau.edu Hi musicians, While developing a performance, patch and tone editor for the Roland D70 synthesizer, I already succeeded a program that receives and saves the performance, patch,tone and parameters of the D70. Of course this program can also send the parameters back to the D70. Now you can edit your patches and tones, without bothering of loosing (original) patches. A very helpfull utility, right? When someone is interested, I will post it to rec.music.synth, or I will upload the program to atari.archive.umich.edu (if I know how to do this). Please let me now, if you are interested, or when you know how to upload programs to a.a.u.e. Geert. -- ================================================================================ ============ Geert W.T. Jonkheer. ============= ========== Ahold N.V. The Netherlands geert@ccsds.ahold.nl ========== =================================================================== ------------------------------ Date: 22 Jan 92 12:14:43 GMT From: noao!ncar!elroy.jpl.nasa.gov!usc!cs.utexas.edu!convex!rosenkra@arizona.edu (William Rosenkranz) Subject: Darn brevity To: Info-Atari16@naucse.cse.nau.edu In article <1992Jan21.205846.29303@syscon.rn.com> carl@syscon.rn.com (Carl Kreider) writes: >That sounds right for Alcyon but pretty strong for GNU. MegaMax is about >1100 - 1600 for GNU seems strong. memory fails, but i remember GNU being at least 1.5x alcyon (both 16-bit). the point about compilers having non-trivial impact on performance is nevertheless valid. i consider 10 percent or more significant so megamax's 35-40 percent improvement is quite significant and points out a possible problem if tests are performed with less than optimal compilers. >I think dhrystone is best bench available for general purpose. i could argue that there is really no universally adequate "general purpose" benchmark (real code is _always_ superior), but i won't :-). >Do you *really* think the 3:1 difference is the compiler? in this case (ie dhrystones) i can at least point out specific examples where the difference is significant, tho maybe not 3:1 (maybe 2:1). i could probably find 2 compilers on a single machine which differ by 3:1. extrapolation between systems adds more complexity, however. then each system's architectural features and configuration is important if not dominant. and a naive benchmarker could fall into this sort of situation. however, not knowing the conditions under which the reported numbers where generated, i can't claim it is the compiler in whole or in part. i can only tell you that compilers _can_ make huge differences tho. the fact that we are having this exchange indicates the importance of _fully_ documenting test conditions. unfortunately, this sort of info is not easily put in a nice small table so it is rarely done. linpack is one notable exception. jack dongara includes compiler rev as well as all compiler switch settings in his reports. it is sufficient to cite the great importance and relevance of compilers by indicating, at least in the supercomputer market, that the players spend significant development and R&D dollars on compilers, eeking out the last bit of performance possible on unmodified source code. i know of huge deals (ie multimillion $$$) that are won and lost solely based on a few percent improvement in execution exclusively attributed to compilers. i have also seen as much as 30% or more improvement between compiler revs in the workstation realm (eg HP) so if you are using an old compiler, say a couple of revs old, you can easily see large differences on the same machine and the same benchmark. i'm not sure if this is always true for dhrystone, but it is the case for more complicated benchmarks like SPEC or Perfect Club. i also know that on whetstone (another common "general purpose" benchmark), a compiler that can inline can make at least a 2:1 difference. since a significant part of whetstone is to measure call overhead, which inlining essentially eliminates, you have to question its value or at least its "proper" use (and reporting). caveat emptor. -bill rosenkra@convex.com -- Bill Rosenkranz |UUCP: {uunet,texsun}!convex!rosenkra Convex Computer Corp. |ARPA: rosenkra@convex.com ------------------------------ Date: 22 Jan 92 05:56:47 GMT From: noao!ncar!elroy.jpl.nasa.gov!midiline!jared@arizona.edu ('286 Highlander) Subject: Finding the filebase... To: Info-Atari16@naucse.cse.nau.edu I'm here on MIDILINE. I hear all these other users, calling in to this BBS (node?) from local, or far away, talking about files in this weird format I can't understand. My main confusion is getting IN to the file area here on MIDILINE. What do I type and where do I type it to get in to this totally hidden/secret area? I've got an un.ZOO'er program (least I think I do...), but I have to be able to SEE the prgrams first to download them, so I can un.ZOO them. Where on here are they? Where are they anywhere?!? Help!!! Reply in Email ("MAIL"). Thank you. Jared ------------------------------ Date: 22 Jan 92 17:18:20 GMT From: cadence!cadence.com!bammi@uunet.uu.net (Jwahar R. Bammi) Subject: GCC 1.40 & GDB To: Info-Atari16@naucse.cse.nau.edu In article <1992Jan21.152816.6418@sae.com> malay@sae.com (Bob Malay) writes: > I installed GCC 1.40 and compiled "hello.c" - it compiled and ran fine using > Gemini 1.2.1; however, compiling "hello.c" with the "-gg" option to enable > use of gdb gave me this: use '-g' and NOT '-gg'. please grab the latest gdb stuff from atari.archive (atariST gdb v2.6 patchlevel 15) in gnustuff/.../updates/update14.zoo it fixes a lot of problems with older gdb's. Also, -gg is no longer supported by either FSF nor is it supported in gcc-atariST and related tools. ONLY '-g' IS SUPPORTED. (also note that -g and -G are not the same option to gcc. -G has a completely different meaning). cheers, -- -- bang: uunet!cadence!bammi jwahar r. bammi domain: bammi@cadence.com GEnie: J.Bammi CIS: 71515,155 ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 21 Jan 92 15:15:37 GMT From: "D. Hines" Subject: HELP needed (UNIX arc,zoo.lharc : gdb : ST as typewriter) To: Andrew.Stratton@computing-maths.cardiff.ac.uk, Dave Halliday writes: > Andrew.Stratton@cm.cf.ac.uk (Andrew F Stratton) writes: > |> > |> Can anyone help with :- > |> > |> 1. Are there versions of arc, zoo, lharc that run on SUN 4's or VAX? > > Yes most can be got from Atari.archive though I have yet to locate > Zoo201 only an older version that can be compiled on unix. This was also posted to the atari sources group, so Lancaster probably have it, and I have it here - see below. > |> 2. Does anyone know where I can get the documentation for gdb? > > With the souces on atari.archive I believe. Yes, on atari.archive, or here. > |> 3. Is there a program available that lets you use the ST as a > |> typewriter (v useful for filling forms)? > > Yes there is, I always thought the idea of downgrading your computer to > a type writer rather silly but the program does exist. I's called E-Type > and is sold by Digita International. It even costs a wopping > 39.99pounds. I would sugest you simply write a small program to do it. > It cant be that difficult. I assume by that you mean as a terminal emulator. If so, there are a number of free items around... the one I use is Uniterm, again available at Lancaster, atari.archive, or here. In all the above, when I say 'here', I'm referring to a mail response server we run for use by people in the UK. It is intended to serve some other areas, but while we have spare disc space there is some Atari stuff there. This is mainly copies of things from other servers, but may be handy for people to know about. If you want to try it, you may be interested to try sending the following message to Info-Server@uk.ac.daresbury Request: Help Topic: Help Topic: Sources Request: Index Topic: Atari Request: Sources Topic: /Atari/Index Request: End Dave Hines. ------------------------------ Date: 22 Jan 92 12:14:06 GMT From: noao!ncar!elroy.jpl.nasa.gov!usc!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!sol.ctr.columbia.edu !ira.uka.de!math.fu-berlin.de!NewsServ!colina@arizona.edu (Curtis Colina) Subject: Hyperformat disk on a PC To: Info-Atari16@naucse.cse.nau.edu In principle the DOS Computers are able to read the Atari format, but due to the 'laziness' there are mostly no questions if the disk is not in the 'standard' format. Therefore, even though Atari writes the information to the Bootsector, the DOS comps don't read them, but just assumes it's in the 'standard' format. ERGO: DOS says NO WAY....... ..But who wants to use DOS Computers anyway ???? Dossi ------------------------------ Date: 21 Jan 92 12:37:14 GMT From: FREIA.INF.TU-DRESDEN.DE!hohmuth@ucbvax.berkeley.edu (Michael Hohmuth) Subject: I'd like a CPX to... To: Info-Atari16@naucse.cse.nau.edu mcsun!uknet!ox-prg!adrian@uunet.uu.net (Adrian Cox) writes: > There are two CPXs I'd like to have. I don't know if these have > been written, and if they're available, as archie searches are > difficult without a filename. If these exist, and are available for > anonymous ftp (or mail server, as our name server isn't working yet so > I can't use Terminator) please tell me. > > 1. Disk step rate control. I have one 5 1/4" drive and one 3 1/2" > drive, and I'd like to set a 6ms step rate for the 5 1/4". There is a CPX named DISK.CPX. Its source code was published in the German magazine "ST Computer 3/91". I also have got the binary but I really don't know if it is legal to copy it to the net as it is copyrighted by the magazine... > 2. Boot up control. I'm currently using a desk accessory and auto > program called Autoload which loads AUTO programs from a list, so that > they don't have to be in the AUTO folder of drive C. Is there a CPX > based version of the same trick, to save slots? I also use an AUTO program that loads other boot-up's from a list (called Autobatch, written by me :: ). If I want to change the setup, I edit the list with an editor; what is the acc/cpx supposed to do? Michael -- Internet: hohmuth@freia.inf.tu-dresden.de ------------------------------ Date: 22 Jan 92 11:24:12 GMT From: mcsun!uknet!edcastle!simonk@uunet.uu.net (Simon Kinahan) Subject: I'd like a CPX to... To: Info-Atari16@naucse.cse.nau.edu adrian@robots.ox.ac.uk (Adrian Cox) writes: >There are two CPXs I'd like to have. I don't know if these have >been written, and if they're available, as archie searches are >difficult without a filename. If these exist, and are available for >anonymous ftp (or mail server, as our name server isn't working yet so >I can't use Terminator) please tell me. >1. Disk step rate control. I have one 5 1/4" drive and one 3 1/2" >drive, and I'd like to set a 6ms step rate for the 5 1/4". >2. Boot up control. I'm currently using a desk accessory and auto >program called Autoload which loads AUTO programs from a list, so that >they don't have to be in the AUTO folder of drive C. Is there a CPX >based version of the same trick, to save slots? >Thanx, Adrian >-- >Adrian Cox, | This is yet another self referential signature. >Robotics Research Group, | >Engineering Science Dept,| I tried, as only a chimneypot can try... >Oxford, UK. | This is probably a good time to mention what CPXs are and what they are used for. CPXs althought thay are compiled as normal programs are basically treated like subroutines to XCONTROL and as such are not really programs in their own right. According to Atari CPXs should do what their name says they do. They should be used to control aspects of the system. Thus altering colours, disk drive settings etc are legitimate uses. Controling TSR utilities such as mouse accelerators is also a legitimate use. Actually running a mouse accelerator or some other function often performed by DAs is *not* a good use for a CPX. Hope this helps somebody out there. Simon Kinahan aka simonk@castle.ed.ac.uk - "Mostly Harmless" ------------------------------ Date: 22 Jan 92 09:33:14 GMT From: mcsun!uknet!edcastle!hwcs!neil@uunet.uu.net (Neil Forsyth) Subject: PD C compilers for ST To: Info-Atari16@naucse.cse.nau.edu I just dug out my old Megamax manual and it says:- "1.4.1 Segmentation The space used by a program at run time is divided into a number of segments. Each segment may contain up to 32KB. By default a program will consist of three segments: a BSS ... a DATA ... and a CODE segment ..." So that settles how Megamax did it. +----------------------------------------------------------------------------+ ! DISCLAIMER:Unless otherwise stated, the above comments are entirely my own ! ! ! ! Neil Forsyth JANET: neil@uk.ac.hw.cs ! ! Dept. of Computer Science ARPA: neil@cs.hw.ac.uk ! ! Heriot-Watt University UUCP: ..!ukc!cs.hw.ac.uk!neil ! ! Edinburgh, Scotland, UK "That was never 5 minutes!" ! +----------------------------------------------------------------------------+ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 22 Jan 1992 11:13 EST From: CSULLOGG@crl.aecl.ca Subject: Prnt from GCR to SLM605 To: Info-Atari16@naucse.cse.nau.edu Yesterday I managed to get my 4 meg 1040STE printing to my Atari SLM605 laser while running Macware under Spectre GCR (3.0). The German program SLM 804 Init (from Fearn & Music in Stuttgart) redirects output from the parallel port to a buffer then outputs to the SLM605 via the DMA. I used MacPrint's HPLJ II driver to create the image in the buffer. While I was quoted 50 Marks for the SLM Init, I paid 100 Marks + 65 Marks for handling. While I am not enthused at having paid 330% of the quoted price, I highly recommend the product to anyone who has a 4 meg Atari and GCR/SLM laser combinations. Please note: I had purchased JetLink Express to generate pages for printing but the SLM Init does not work with JLE. Finally, Dave Small if you read this posting WHERE IS VERSION 3.1 OF SPECTRE. I have had ver 3.0 for a year and have been unable to use it on my TT. To say the lease, I am getting somewhat impatient at > 1 year's wait for a software upgrade for a product that was advertised as working with the TT (the fine print does not say DOES NOT WORK WITH THE TT'S INTERNAL HARD DISK!!!). Please, provide 3.1 a.s.a.p, I don't like a lump of coal in my cartridge port!!! ------------------------------ Date: 22 Jan 92 12:17:49 GMT From: mcsun!uknet!warwick!nott-cs!dpg@uunet.uu.net (`Grave' Dave Gymer) Subject: Sozobon 1.33i vs. Sozobon 2.0 (extras) To: Info-Atari16@naucse.cse.nau.edu In article thelake!steve@cs.umn.edu writes: > > What about source? I can't use binaries compiled with dLibs, as they crash > > under MiNT.I installed 2.0 for a laugh by compiling under the GCC as the > > "UNIX"-hosted cross-compiler version (GCC on my ST, that is). > >You may have had problems with an old version of the library. There were >bugs in the original dLibs 1.2 distribution that bombed programs started >under Gemini/Mupfel and MiNT. As you can see, they were fixed in the >beta-testing stage (which is one reason it took so flipping long). Which version of MiNT are you running? There was a hack in at least one version of MiNT which allows dLibs to work; it was removed in later version of MiNT. Maybe I got hold of the wrong end of the stick, but I thought all versions of dLibs misbehaved, because, among other things, they try to recover information from their parent process (which may well have terminated under MiNT). In any case, I'm not using dLibs with Sozobon, I'm using a half-baked port I did of Eric Smith's MiNTlib, which is why I'd like source. (I _hate_ using \ in filenames; I have to type them all twice from bash or ksh!) >I can't answer your specific question about source availability, but the >sentiment will be passed along. Thanks. I really don't like to use software I can't get source to. -- `Grave' Dave Gymer | Olivier's law: 42 St Mary's Park, | Louth, Lincs, | Experience is something you don't get until LN11 0EF, ENGLAND | just after you need it. ------------------------------ Date: 22 Jan 92 16:46:29 GMT From: cadence!cadence.com!bammi@uunet.uu.net (Jwahar R. Bammi) Subject: Sozobon 1.33i vs. Sozobon 2.0 (extras) To: Info-Atari16@naucse.cse.nau.edu In article <1992Jan21.131611.17662@cs.nott.ac.uk> dpg@cs.nott.ac.uk (`Grave' Dave Gymer) writes: > What about source? I can't use binaries compiled with dLibs, as they crash > under MiNT.I installed 2.0 for a laugh by compiling under the GCC as the You must have a very old version of MiNT. Eric specifically kludged up a fix for dLibs startup code which insists on not using the atari/mwc conventions that the rest of the world does (i know its not perfect). cheers, -- -- bang: uunet!cadence!bammi jwahar r. bammi domain: bammi@cadence.com GEnie: J.Bammi CIS: 71515,155 ------------------------------ Date: 22 Jan 92 15:23:10 GMT From: noao!ncar!elroy.jpl.nasa.gov!swrinde!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!pacific.mps.ohio -state.edu!linac!uchinews!spssig!bobhays@arizona.edu (Bob Hays) Subject: Sozobon 1.33i vs. Sozobon 2.0 (extras) To: Info-Atari16@naucse.cse.nau.edu On the subject of the Sozobon 1.33i make utility (thanks for bringing it up, Chris:-), I found I needed to uncomment the buffer arguments for use on my box (2 DS/DD drives, a D drive ramdisk). I commented out the path variables entirely and used the one I defined in my gulam shell as an environment variable. Works fine (I load three executables for Sozobon into the ramdisk at startup and it finds them fine). I guess I should find a way to pay the "big bucks" for more memory or a hard disk (wonder which is cheaper for an older ST [1040]). Anyway, if you have problems you might find uncommenting the buffer variables in MAKE.INI will help. Have fun! - Bob -- ================================================================================ The opinions expressed above are those of the author and not SPSS, Inc. bobhays@spss.com Phone: (312) 329-3529 | "There is no dark side of the Bob Hays Fax: (312) 329-3657 | moon really ...." - Pink Floyd ------------------------------ Date: 21 Jan 92 18:59:35 GMT From: noao!ncar!elroy.jpl.nasa.gov!swrinde!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!malgudi.oar.net! uoft02.utoledo.edu!desire.wright.edu!cse0507@arizona.edu Subject: Sozobug 1.33i To: Info-Atari16@naucse.cse.nau.edu Would somebody else please try a particular call in Sozobon 1.33i? The offending call is vqf_attributes, and I'm getting back trash for the fourth array parameter. What's more, it crashes my TT really bad. Using vdicall, I can code it up by hand, but...geez. Is it me, or is it Memorex? -- ?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!? ? ||| Bob "SubGenius" Schulze (%!#) @%(-)&$$ ! ? )|( >> cse0507@desire.wright.edu << ! ? / | \ the above address does not work - please use it! ------------------------------ Date: Wed,22 Jan 92 11:01:16 GMT From: K.Wolstenholme@a.salford-software-services.co.uk Subject: Start Subscriptions To: Info-Atari16@naucse.cse.nau.edu Hi folks ! I'm sorry to bring up a subject you probably thought was long dead but I've been off the net for some time. My problem is that the last I heard from Start was nearly a year ago and my subscription still had another 8 issues to run ! They haven't answered my letters and phoning the subscriptions number got me nowhere. Has anybody actually had their outstanding Start subscriptions refunded ? Any suggested course of action (like give up :-)) ? Maybe a phone number that will get some results ? Thanks Keith =============================================================================== JANET: keith@uk.co.sss.a, keith@uk.co.salford-software-services.a isocept_support@uk.co.sss.a (for ISOCEPT related enquiries). PHONE: +44 61 737 7010 POST: 3-S, Technology House, Lissadel Street, Salford, M6 6AP, U.K. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: 22 Jan 92 15:41:00 GMT From: noao!ncar!elroy.jpl.nasa.gov!usc!orion.oac.uci.edu!network.ucsd.edu!sdcc12!sdcc 13!atilghma@arizona.edu (Adam Tilghman) Subject: Tips for high-speed modem use? To: Info-Atari16@naucse.cse.nau.edu Howdy! I just picked up a v.32bis modem for a song, and now I need to know what patches/etc. I needfor top performance on my ST... Do I need to increase my serial buffer size, use TURBOCTS, etc.??? any e-mail would be appreciated. -- adam -- ==== Adam G. Tilghman - atilghma@sdcc13.ucsd.edu - (619)558-2141 ==== == "Martha, fetch my rifle - thar's another UCSD ECE undergrad!" == ------------------------------ Date: 22 Jan 92 13:00:23 GMT From: mcsun!uknet!sersun1!okes@uunet.uu.net (Oke S) Subject: To anyone stuck in DM or CSB To: Info-Atari16@naucse.cse.nau.edu I have an editor/mapper for DM and CSB which I can mail if anyone wants it. It was written by a friend and myself, and is free to all. If you would like a copy, e-mail to okes@essex.ac.uk and ask nicely. Simon Oke. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 21 Jan 92 10:45:40 WET From: Ian C McCall Subject: TOS 2.06 upgrade for Mega STE To: Info-Atari16@naucse.cse.nau.edu Is there any more news about an upgrade from TOS 2.05 to 2.06 for the Mega STE yet? It's a UK Mega STE, if that makes any difference. Cheers, Ian ------------------------------ Date: 21 Jan 92 12:36:40 GMT From: FREIA.INF.TU-DRESDEN.DE!hohmuth@ucbvax.berkeley.edu (Michael Hohmuth) Subject: Turboass To: Info-Atari16@naucse.cse.nau.edu mcsun!uknet!edcastle!kev@uunet.uu.net (K S Shea) writes: > Hi - I've been using the TurboAss assembler lately and I'm wondring how to > get it to load in the debugger (which I assume is bugaboo.prg) to avoid > to leave the editor every time I want to test something out. > Any ideas? You could: a) load the debugger (bugaboo.prg) before the assembler and let it residently stay in memory with the command "resident"; b) load the debugger from within the assembler with "Debugger nachladen" from the "Assembler" menu (make sure that there is enough memory left to load the debugger (if not, reorganize Turboass' memory menagement by selecting "Information" from the "Editor" menu and then clicking "Reorganisieren" (enter the amount of memory you want to keep free (at least 300K) at the first editable line)). The names of menus etc. refer to the German version of Turboass; I don't know if there is an English version, too. Michael -- Internet: hohmuth@freia.inf.tu-dresden.de ------------------------------ Date: 22 Jan 92 13:53:25 GMT From: psinntp!ultb!ritvax.isc.rit.edu!JWS7793@uunet.uu.net Subject: WANTED Cheap ST To: Info-Atari16@naucse.cse.nau.edu WANTED: A cheap ST (520FM would do) do to some simple midi stuff. Need not have a monitor if it has a RF modulator. Send Email if you have one for sale. James ------------------------------ End of Info-Atari16 Digest ******************************